Validation:JeffOtto.com LTD's challenge to HAFC critics
From PESWiki
HAFC hydrogen boost dealer (http://bwt.jeffotto.com), Jeff Otto, lays down the gauntlet regarding the company (UCS of A)'s guarantee of a 50% improvement in mileage, asking for any skeptic to come forward with $5000 cash to be matched by him in the same amount. Winner takes all.
- Status
- The challenge was accepted by three members of the New Energy Congress, but in the process of discussing terms and conditions of the test, they lost interest. Jeff will not agree to a chassis dynamometer test, saying that it would be too easy to rig the data. The NEC members said that they think that no matter what, the results would be skewed or debated away, so they are not interested in engaging Otto in his challenge. Jeff poins out that the EPA now requires auto manufactures to do real world highway mileage tests to stop them from playing games with their Dynos.
| Table of contents |
Regarding
- Fuel Efficiency > Hydrogen Injection > HAFC: Hydro Assist Fuel Cell kit - The HAFC kit presently for sale combines three fuel saving technologies along with a sophisticated computerized emission system optimizer. It includes 1) an electrolysis unit for on-board hydrogen injection; 2) a vaporizer/ionizer using magnets; and 3) additives that include acetone and xylene.
The Challenge
On March 28, 2008, Jeff Otto wrote:
Hey Sterling,
Feel free to forward this to your buddy Eric [Krieg] and anyone else you see fit to, thanks. [1] (http://www.phact.org/hafc.htm)
- They provide a suitable shop at their chosen continental US location and we will provide a vehicle to be modified.
- A scientific before & after mileage check (http://bwt.jeffotto.com/mileage-calculator.htm#Test) will be performed.
- We will announce the date and location to give anyone that would like to witness the event adequate prior notice and it will be video taped.
- They are also welcome to announce the event and have any of their experts present to test/examine the pre & post HAFC equipped vehicle.
- If their experts can find anything bogus like a false tank, or whatever, they can announce that to the world as they see fit.
- When they do discover the technology works exactly as we claim, they can than repent by issuing a public apology and remove any negative comments they have posted anywhere.
Obviously the winner will keep the losers $5,000!
--
Sincerely,
Jeff Otto, Secretary of Jeffotto.com Ltd.
FAQ
- Q. How Many Takers Will You Accept?
- "We will take one challenger at a time. We only have to prove our point once (but we like easy money), and it will be video taped."
- Q. What is your deadline for takers?
- "There is no deadline, the truth is eternal."
- Q. How will you decide which taker to go with first? First come first serve?
- "That would most likely depend on the chosen location and the schedule of our closest trained 'Tuner' level mechanic. In all cases we would need a minimum of 30 days with both sides agreeing on the final date, any cancellation past that point would mean a forfeiture of the cancelling party. Also an escrow account on 10K would not involve that much in fees (winner would pay at cash-out time), that is where the funds will be held and deposited with-in 5 business days of both sides confirming the event day." (J.O.; March 29, 2008 7:40 AM mountain)
Skeptic Sites
- http://www.phact.org/hafc.htm - Eric Krieg's skeptical page regarding the HAFC.
Challenge Takers
- New Energy Congress member, Mark Dansie has accepted Jeff's challenge. (March 28, 2008)
- New Energy Congress member, Eric Krieg accepted Jeff's challenge. (March 30, 2008) Eric is trying to get Jeff to be willing to get back to him to negotiate terms of the test (as of 3-31-08)
- New Energy Congress advisor, Jim Dunn is also participating in the skeptic's camp. (March 29, 2008)
Correspondence
Utah Valley University venue preference
On March 28, 2008, Jeff wrote:
"Hi Sterling,
"[...] If I remember right you know the head guy over the [auto] mechanics schooling at [Utah Valley University]. Please allow him the opportunity. That would be a very good location for a new training center!"
- - - -
On March 29, 2008, 10:15 AM mountain; New Energy Congress founder, Sterling D. Allan wrote:
I have left a phone message with Robert Cambpell (http://www.uvsc.edu/profpages/view.cfm?user=10007648), Assistant Professor of Automotive Technology at Utah Valley State College (http://www.uvsc.edu/) (to be University in July) regarding this challenge.
- - - -
On March 28, 2008, New Energy Congress member, Mark Dansie wrote:
(slightly edited)
Hi Stirling,
The University has some excellent people I have met and excellent facilities including engines on dynometers and chasis dynometers. I just have to time for when my next trip is; and I am happy to take up the challenge, or as part of a group. It is an easy $5000.
However, it has to be tested by qualified technicians in a lab enviroment.
I would suggest both using a car on the chassis dynometer, utilising an EPA-approved run test and as a backup using an engine dynometer where we can set a load over a given set of time.
See if that is acceptable.
Even if I can't get over in the near future, I have some associates who would take it up.
P.S. if we do win, do the people in the USA get an apology? Better still, this test can be used as evidence in a Court for a class action....dealers and customers.
- March 30, 2008 response by Jeff Otto
- How about consumers world wide? Do they get an apology on any page you pasted your negative comments on? And would you consider joining us in a class action suit against the oil companies and the auto manufactures?
- - - -
On March 29, 2008 8:10 AM mountain; New Energy Congress advisor, Jim Dunn wrote:
We recently had an interesting case with my weekly radio talk show – the ‘Energy Freedom Fighters’ where one of the morning hosts was driving a big Chevy suburban and complaining that he was only getting 11-12 mpg. We asked him if he would be willing to let us take the car for a couple days and see what we could do.
First we put a scan gauge (http://pureenergysystems.com/store/ScanGauge/) on it and drove a fixed course in several directions at fixed speeds, and found that we were averaging only about 12.3 mpg. We also found that the tire pressures were on the low side, and the car had a lot of hockey equipment in the back.
Then we took the car into the shop and did 5 simple things:
- We pumped his tires up to the max pressure (44 psi)
- We changed his oil to synthetic oil
- We changed the dirty air filter
- We took off his roof rack and took out 200 lbs. of hockey bags
- We showed him how to drive less aggressively, using the scan tool
Results – On the same course and speeds, he was now getting 18.5 mpg, a 50% increase, without even using one of Dennis Lee’s kits!
note - We did NOT add acetone (http://addacetone.com) or any other fuel additives.
This also proves that driving habits are probably as important as improving engine efficiency.
From running the annual Tour deSol (http://www.TourDeSol.org) rallies, we have learned that there are far too many variables to doing road tests, so we should insist that the testing be done on a Chassis dyno, at a certified lab, and re-tested again, afterwards with the devices removed, to see if the car reverts back to the original mpg level.
- March 30, 2008 response by Jeff Otto
- If your Suburban owner would have followed the mileage increase tips (http://bwt.jeffotto.com/mileage-calculator.htm#Tips) we list on our calculator page you will find the ones you utilized and many more listed (including tips while fueling). And guess what? We did not make a dime on him! What did you charge him, or are we allowed to ask that in this forum?
- - - -
On March 29, 2008, New Energy Congress founder, Sterling D. Allan wrote:
Jim,
Inasmuch as some of the HAFC modifications (e.g. the Xylene/Acetone additive) have strong residual effects (cleaning out the engine), it is not reasonable to expect that a "revert" test will return to the baseline "before" measurement; so I do not think that this should be required in this protocol.
- March 30, 2008 response by Jeff Otto
- We announced Dutchman Inc introduced a new "HAFC Covalizer" (EPA Registered) in our JeffOtto.com Tech Update back on 2-22-08 (http://update.jeffotto.com/archive/2-22-08.htm#Hydro) that does not even require mixing and is not classified as HAZMAT.
- - - -
On March 29, 2008 7:50 AM mountain, Jeff Otto wrote:
Your experts may run any before and after tests they see fit, however the results that count will be based on the mileage test as linked to (http://bwt.jeffotto.com/mileage-calculator.htm#Test) in the offer.
- March 30, 2008 clarification by Jeff Otto
- We provide the "Tuner" these folks time is by no means cheap! You will not be allowed to tie up our man's time for endless tests, reasonable tests yes (4 hours pre & 4 hours post maximum).
Separate Component Tests?
On March 28, 2008, New Energy Congress advisor, Jim Dunn wrote:
Sterling, et alles – What level of improvement are they attributing to the Hydrogen/Brown’s gas generator alone?
[...] The test should best be done in 3 phases with each method individually tested.
It should also be done on a standard 1 cylinder laboratory IC test engine, which we have access to at MIT and other labs, with a full accounting of all energy including batteries used, etc.
I will discuss with Eric and Mark.
- - - -
On March 28, 2008, New Energy Congress founder, Sterling D. Allan wrote:
Hi Jim,
While the HAFC includes multiple components, and a curiosity would indeed separate the components; to be fair, I don't think they should be separated in this test. Let them run together in a system as they advertise and install.
Also, one of the stipulations of Jeff's challenge was that JeffOtto.com LTD provide the vehicle to be modified, though I think it would be good if he accepted your suggested of including a standard 1 cylinder laboratory IC test engine.
Do you think MIT would be willing to host this test? What about the "other labs"? could you name those labs?
- - - -
On March 28, 2008, New Energy Congress member, Ken Rasmussen wrote:
Jim,
The HAFC was designed to only work on an automobile with a water cooling system. A 1 cylinder test engine won't work.
The challenge is merely to prove the [HAFC] advertising claim of +50% MILEAGE improvement, not anything else an academic might dream up. Although, I'm sure even Otto would love to see an exhaust analysis test included.
Sterling,
The REASON a dealer has to be involved is not only the HAFC, but EVERYBODY'S hydrogen boost system is extremely touchy to get working at peak efficiency. It wouldn't take much for a biased technician to twist a screw and torpedo the results.
And yes, I AM challenging the integrity of any technician that touches a test vehicle other than a manufacturer representative to CONFIRM it continues to follow installation specifications. Good grief, I was a test car driver for Honda for a year. They never let their own drivers even look under the hood unless there was an engine fire. [...] If Honda won't even trust their own highly trained drivers, why would you expect an HAFC dealer to trust any lab technician, especially if the test is set up by a [skeptic].
[...] Krieg continues to claim the HAFC is heavily MLM promoted. He doesn't seem to know it is the Water4Gas booster that is MLM Spam Bombing all our e-mail boxes (I've counted 12/day in mine) NOT the HAFC which is a simple 2 level commission structure for referrals, NOT MLM. And Eric's website rhetoric shows he doesn't know the HAFC and PICC are 2 totally different technologies.
Everybody,
If you feel this challenge borders too much on gambling, I am planning on getting an HAFC installed on the car I use myself and welcome any NEC member to ride along with me on both a before and after test run.
[...] The only scientific comparison would have to be between 2 new vehicles for a brand comparison, and nobody wants to donate a pair of new cars. So I have to agree with Jeff Otto that a simple before and after test of a PROPERLY INSTALLED SYSTEM is the next best choice. And I must point out why the dealer needs to pre-inspect the tested car. A faulty car computer or excessive carbon buildup will also sabotage its performance. I even think Fran would agree with that. So the test car better not have any known major problems either.
[...] I must stress a specific parameter, an identical "After" test needs to be done, after the vehicle has been driven at least a thousand miles or 4 tanks of gas, whichever is greater. The reason for this test goes back to the claim in the HAFC advertising that their proprietary unit, the "Optimizer" corrects pre-programmed errors in the car's computer. Intentional "errors" that don't kick in until a mileage modification device has been used for about a thousand miles. This little detail means most any hydrogen boost unit will provide some level of benefit immediately after installation. But the reason I promote the HAFC on my web site is I feel it is the one most likely to continue its benefits long after it is installed. [...]
Ken Rasmussen
http://www.commutefaster.com/Energy2.html
- - - -
On March 29, 2008 7:40 AM moutain, Jeff Otto wrote:
Obviously we are not going to hand a kit over to a supposedly "neutral" testing facility and walk away. There is way too much at stake here and I am not referring to the 5K.
- - - -
On March 29, 2008 9:08 AM mountain, New Energy Congress advisor, Jim Dunn wrote:
Ken – I think you have some very valid points, and no one in our network probably knows more about combusting hydrogen in IC engines than you (except maybe BWW and Ford).
[...]
Please keep us apprised of your progress with your own testing.
Otto and Dennis should be very excited to have you test a device and provide one at no cost, in return for your test results.
= = = =
On March 30, 2008 8:18 AM mountain, New Energy Congress member, Eric Krieg wrote:
People,
I am very interested in making this happen. If there really is a way to greatly lower world fuel consumption, I would be all for it. Better for me to be humbled, do a 180 and start being for something not just against something.
I share [Jim]'s concerns. I think there are some cars that just started off with really poor mileage and can get a lot of conventional every day kind of improvments like higher tire pressure, a really skilled tune up, maybe most of the tank being filled up with a higher energy fuel, using cruise control, etc. I talked with one person who said a 40 mpg Corola was made to get over 70.
A few questions for Jeff:
[bracketed comments inserted by Sterling D. Allan]
- Could the test be done before major media people? [yes]
- Could you revise it to give us a list of cars ahead of time with proposed mileages that we could pick from? [good suggestion]
- Could you start the test with near empty fuel and let us witness a complete fill up at the very start of the test? [yes]
- Could the end of the test be at a mechanic location to document the emissions and put it up on a lift just to allay any future arm chair skeptic allegations of hidden supplies? [yes, the entire test will likely be done in an auto lab]
- What is the max distance of the test and max typical speed you would consider fair? [See link (http://bwt.jeffotto.com/mileage-calculator.htm#Test) J.O. provided]
I don't think the magnet or fuel heater really does anything, but I like the idea of doing a before test with no covalizer and the gas producer turned off. But I am less adament than [Jim] that we have to do this.
I think it would be neat if we could have a conference line talk to review concerns in advance.
- March 30, 2008 response by Jeff Otto
- Re: "...Better for me to be humbled, do a 180 and start being for something not just against something". Thank you Eric Kreig, and we will hold you to it!
- - - -
On March 30, 2008, New Energy Congress founder, Sterling D. Allan wrote:
I think we are in agreement that the test would best be run on a Chassis dyno.
Also, the only parameters that will be modified between the before and after tests will be the addition of the HAFC components. All other variable will remain the same, including
- driving conditions (via Chassis dyno)
- tire pressure
- gas type
- March 30, 2008 response by Jeff Otto
- Like stated above you will have 4 hours max for pre and post install to run any tests you see fit with the equipment you have at your disposal. However, whether or not we achieved our 50% increase will depend solely upon our controlled highway test (http://bwt.jeffotto.com/mileage-calculator.htm#Test) linked to in the offer.
- Other notes of interest:
- 1) The 10,000 will be held in a escrow account and the winner will pay the fees at cash-out time
- 2) As stated, we will provide the vehicle, whether that be an '08 Hummer or a '98 Buick LaSabre
- 3) Re-read the offer EXACTLY as stated and do not assume anything other unless further clarified by JeffOtto.com LTD
Contact
Jeff Otto, Overseer
http://bwt.jeffotto.com
His Covenant Ministries, a UCS of A Dealer
502 N Division Street
Carson City, Nevada [ 89703 ]
Phone: 1-602-635-3660; FAX 480-699-0841
E-mail: admin@jeffotto.com (mailto:admin@jeffotto.com?subject=HAFC_challenge_mentioned_at_PESWiki.com)
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